Post by Shade on Nov 13, 2008 0:00:26 GMT -4
We all know how it works around here: Half of us love Lucas, the others hate his guts and say Ness is better. Well, I've decided I'm going to look at this from a completely factual point of view. I'm going to list all of their moves and compare each character's version of the move. Having the better version of the move gets that character a point. The person with the most points wins.
GROUND ATTACKS
GROUND ATTACKS
- Neutral A
Ness: while these two really look and feel the same for both characters, Ness's does 9% damage and pushes the opponent (in this case, Lucas) from the center of Final Destination to right on top of the first dark blue arrow behind that character.
Lucas: Lucas's, however, does 10% damage and pushes the opponent (Ness) a TINY bit farther.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 1 Ness: 0 - Forward tilt
Ness: Does 11% damage and knockback equal to Lucas's
Lucas: While it does the exact same damage and knockback, it has to be sweetspotted to do that much damage. Therefore, it's not as effective.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 1 Ness: 0 - Down tilt
Ness: Ness's does 4% damage and causes tripping more frequently than Lucas's. Also faster.
Lucas: Lucas's does 6% but is slightly slower than Ness's dtilt. Also causes tripping at a smaller rate than Ness's.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 1 Ness: 2 - Up tilt
Ness: Does 7% damage and less knockback (or knockup...lol) than Lucas's
Lucas: Does 11% and knocks the opponent farther up
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 2 Ness: 2 - Forward Smash (note: all smash's are UNCHARGED)
Ness: Non-sweetspotted is 18% with equal knockback to Lucas's non-sweetspotted move. When ss'd (the tip), it does slightly less knockback as Lucas's when ss'd, but does 24% damage.
Lucas: Has slightly more range than Ness's and equal knockback when uncharged, but only does 11% when non-ss'd. When ss'd (the tip), it does more knockback than Ness's but less damage (only 15%).
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 2 Ness: 3 - Down Smash
Ness: while uncharged, it does less damage (I stopped keeping count) than Lucas's but more knockback.
Lucas: More damage, less knockback. However, because I considered this an even trade-off, I decided to compare the fully charged versions as well. Lucas's fully charged Dsmash still has more power and has even more knockback than Ness's whose knockback didn't change from one charge level to the next.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 3 Ness: 3 - Up Smash
Ness: I don't even have to test this one. In terms of attack and knockback, Ness's is weaker. But it's also faster and hit's a wider area.
Lucas: Much stronger but slower and less of a area that's hit.
Winner: Lucas (just because it's a better kill move and tbh any Lucas player worth his salt knows how to work around his problems)
Lucas: 4 Ness: 3
Aerials - Neutral Air
Ness's: Both do 11% damage, but Ness's has less knockback and is only one hit.
Lucas's: Does 11% when you add all the hits together (and the multi-hit is a bonus) plus has more knockback.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 5 Ness: 3 - Forward Air
Ness's: 6% damage, multi-hit, equal knockback
Lucas's: 12% damage, single hit, equal knockback
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 6 Ness: 3 - Back Air
Ness: More damage and knocback, plus might be usable in a WoP.
Lucas: less damage and knockback, even if it is a spike. Besides, that thing's as hard as crap to land.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 6 Ness: 4 - Down Air
Ness: Again, no need to test it. Ness's spike is WAAAY more useful than the spike from Lucas's down air.
Lucas: Ness has the superior spike because only the LAST hit of Lucas's down air is a spike and it's a weak one at that.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 6 Ness: 5 - Up Air
Ness: Superior only due to knockback. Equal damage.
Lucas: Inferior due to lack of any knockback. Equal damage.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 6 Ness: 6
SPECIALS - Neutral Special
Ness: The PK Flash is obviously more powerful, but it's so slow and can't be moved nearly as far to it's less useful.
Lucas: The PK Freeze doesn't deal quite as much damage, but can reach farther, flies through the air and charges fully faster, and can incapacitate the opponent for a follow up attack (usually his powerful Up Smash).
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 7 Ness: 6 - Forward Special
Ness: The superior PK Fire by a longshot. Is multi-hit, incapacitates the opponent, and is a great follow-up for moves such as grabs, fsmashs, or the dreaded CAZCOMBO (PK fire to recovering opponent leads into down air spike).
Lucas: The only advantage is the Zap Jump, but that doesn't cut it in the attack category of this data sheet.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 7 Ness: 7 - Down special
Ness: Lucas's does everything Ness's does and more. Enough said.
Lucas: It can absorb everything Ness's can (and believe it or not from both sides), plus it can be used as a high-knockback attack AND the Magnet Pull.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 8 Ness: 7 - Up Special
Ness: The actual missle is far inferior to Lucas's. Only does about 8% and only hits once. PK Thunder2, however, has more knockback than Lucas's. Too bad that isn't enough to win it.
Lucas: Much better because it's multi-hit and travels through the opponent. You can easily rack up about 20% with it. PK Thunder 2 is multi-hit and can land about 35% damage. Unfortunately, not much kill move potential. The superior amount of hits and damage wins this for Lucas.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 9 Ness: 7
Grabs and Throws - Grab & Pummel attack
Ness: Ness's grab has a smaller range but less lag if it misses. Has a weaker pummel, though, so because I put these two together, the speed isn't enough.
Lucas: Lucas's reaches farther but is easily punished if avoided. His Pummel is three times as strong as Ness's, though (1% vs 3%).
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 10 Ness: 7 - Forward Throw
Ness: 11% damage and much more of a throwing distance
Lucas: 10% damage and less distance when thrown.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 10 Ness: 8 - Back Throw
Ness: 11% damage but only half as much distance
Lucas: 10% but twice as much distance. The only reason the damage vs distance thing does not result in a tie is because it's only 1%.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 11 Ness: 8 - Up Throw
Ness: Both Ness and Lucas deal 10% with their up throw but Ness's throws the opponent slightly higher up.
Lucas: 10% damage and less distance.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 11 Ness: 9 - Down Throw
Ness: does 9% and throws opponent the same vertical distance plus some horizontal distance because they are thrown at an angle.
Lucas: Lucas's only does 7% and launches straight up at the same height of Lucas's.
Winner: Ness
Lucas: 11 Ness: 10
Recovery - PK Thunder 2
Ness: Sends Ness slightly shorter of a range than Lucas and is preventable because his PK Thunder missle can be neutralized
Lucas: Goes a SMALL amount farther but wins because it can go through more attempts to block the missle than Ness's can.
Winner: Lucas
Lucas: 12 Ness: 10 - Bonus options
Lucas gets an extra point because he can make use of the Zap Jump + Magnet pull AND has a tether recovery. Now this really should constitute as two points, but I'm doing you Ness fans a favor and only giving him one point. You can thank me later.
Lucas: 13 Ness: 10
TO BE CONTINUED
Also, I'd like to point something out at this time. Before I got this far in this research, Blue posted saying he could kick ANY Lucas's butt in a match. That may be true, but that's really the player's fault. If two players of absolutely equal skill fought in a Ness vs Lucas match, Lucas would have the upper hand. Which one you are better is doesn't mean the character is better. Gimpyfish pwn'd with Bowser Melee, but does that mean Bowser was a good character in Melee? Heck no. Gimpy himself will tell you that (watch his video called "Playing With the Proper Mindset").
Also, SBR put Lucas higher up on the tier list than Ness, so that further backs this thing up. No offense, but those guys know way more than any of us do, so I'm sure they put Lucas on top for a reason. I don't really care for tiers, but it's a fact.
